jamesbond007
09-11 12:41 PM
Wow those guys/gals are fed with so many lies - numbers usa and programmers guild is projecting this bill as if creation of "new" half a million visas and propagating that so many new "foreigners" will take up jobs. Do they understand the word "recapture" and also these are unused 'greencard' recapture - many of beneficiaries are in us for way too long and they are not going to change the job market a bit.
Does IV already have a propaganda group of their own to thwart such baseless silly accusations?
If not, this group ought to be formed; made up of people who are patient, have very good communication skills (both verbal and written) and be well aware of the current immigration process in the US.
I am afraid that the clueless media might see these lies on Dice (which is one the top job search sites), and assume that what is posted there is accurate. If they run with it as a story without doing proper investigation, it will get unnecessary negative publicity. It needs a proper counter argument, supported by the facts. eg: the legislation that limits the current EB level at 140K per year; and the legislation that does not allow spillover of the unused visas from one year to the next.
There are a lot of ignorant people around. Some knowledge transfer to them will help us all. (There will be some people who are not receptive to knowledge. No one can help them.)
Thanks
Does IV already have a propaganda group of their own to thwart such baseless silly accusations?
If not, this group ought to be formed; made up of people who are patient, have very good communication skills (both verbal and written) and be well aware of the current immigration process in the US.
I am afraid that the clueless media might see these lies on Dice (which is one the top job search sites), and assume that what is posted there is accurate. If they run with it as a story without doing proper investigation, it will get unnecessary negative publicity. It needs a proper counter argument, supported by the facts. eg: the legislation that limits the current EB level at 140K per year; and the legislation that does not allow spillover of the unused visas from one year to the next.
There are a lot of ignorant people around. Some knowledge transfer to them will help us all. (There will be some people who are not receptive to knowledge. No one can help them.)
Thanks
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rustum
08-21 12:03 AM
Hi,
My company filed EAD for me and my wife along with 485 recently. I am on L1 and My wife is on L2. Is is possible to file one more EAD on L2 status. Looks like, we can get EAD on L2 faster than EAD with 485. My company attorney is suggesting me not to file one more EAD because one with 485 is pending with USCIS. Is it ok to file one more with L2? how long it will take to get EAD on 485 and EAD on L2.
My company filed EAD for me and my wife along with 485 recently. I am on L1 and My wife is on L2. Is is possible to file one more EAD on L2 status. Looks like, we can get EAD on L2 faster than EAD with 485. My company attorney is suggesting me not to file one more EAD because one with 485 is pending with USCIS. Is it ok to file one more with L2? how long it will take to get EAD on 485 and EAD on L2.
digmetalq
04-07 06:35 AM
The POE issue must be taken seriously, God forbid if you have family emergency, and you are on H1B, will you take the risk and travel, and even if you have to when you return you realise that your employer says that he has qualified US citizen from programmers Guild to replace you.
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webm
05-28 03:40 PM
Congrats!! damialok
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vin13
03-09 12:59 PM
Please do not start the may prediction right now. :rolleyes:
waitnwatch
07-28 04:10 PM
Its amazing how the self proclaimed defenders of Hinduism think that the religion is so fragile. Last I checked Hinduism is known to be >5000 years old, withstood countless aggressors/forced conversions for over 1000s of years, absorbed various cultures and ethnicities to remain one of the dominant religions in the world.
Its asinine to think that the religion/culture that withstood Aurangzeb will be diminished by a freakin IPA.
It is my view that folks who get offended by something as trivial as this, are reflecting their own insecurities or even their lack of faith in something they have been led to believe in.
There is an excellent article on Hinduism and why and how it has survived over the millenia by Amartya Sen. This is one of many excellent articles which are compiled in a book titled "The Argumentative India". If you get a chance please read this article and, even better, the whole book.
There is a lot of information about India's history and culture (with references) and might help throw some light on this discussion of gods on a toilet seat or beer bottle.
I also see a business opportunity from this discussion--caps with Ganesha embroidered on them - would sell like hot cakes! :)
Its asinine to think that the religion/culture that withstood Aurangzeb will be diminished by a freakin IPA.
It is my view that folks who get offended by something as trivial as this, are reflecting their own insecurities or even their lack of faith in something they have been led to believe in.
There is an excellent article on Hinduism and why and how it has survived over the millenia by Amartya Sen. This is one of many excellent articles which are compiled in a book titled "The Argumentative India". If you get a chance please read this article and, even better, the whole book.
There is a lot of information about India's history and culture (with references) and might help throw some light on this discussion of gods on a toilet seat or beer bottle.
I also see a business opportunity from this discussion--caps with Ganesha embroidered on them - would sell like hot cakes! :)
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rajuram
11-14 09:33 AM
Totally agree, very nicely put. They will hear - listen if we present ideas that are pertinent to the existing situation. Nothing more pertinent than the housing mess. No one cares about old jaded ideas like "high talent" etc.
Can people in California approach Zoe Lofergens office with the idea?
On my part I will start sending letters and emails to the law makers.
Some one in the core has to take the lead and give some direction to this effort......
Do not regret if six months from now the housing crisis has cooled a little, no one will listen to us then. We would have wasted another chance. Do not take it for granted that now Obama is in office, he will do smoething about our problems.
all I can say is that now most economists say that housing is key to rescuing the economy and faster immigration is key to faster recovery. this is the key point in the present scenario ..people will give scant respect if we try to use other issues -namely by saying that legal immigrants are suffering or US is losing high talent ..they will just say the whole US is suffering - why should we care about yr problems.
but if we push faster immigration of people who are already here legally as a small way to solve the housing crisis then it will definitely stand a chance -
(please note - no distinction between those who are renting and who have a house already - this makes most sense. this is helpful to those who have purchased a house - since getting gC faster means that they have additional peace of mind)
Can people in California approach Zoe Lofergens office with the idea?
On my part I will start sending letters and emails to the law makers.
Some one in the core has to take the lead and give some direction to this effort......
Do not regret if six months from now the housing crisis has cooled a little, no one will listen to us then. We would have wasted another chance. Do not take it for granted that now Obama is in office, he will do smoething about our problems.
all I can say is that now most economists say that housing is key to rescuing the economy and faster immigration is key to faster recovery. this is the key point in the present scenario ..people will give scant respect if we try to use other issues -namely by saying that legal immigrants are suffering or US is losing high talent ..they will just say the whole US is suffering - why should we care about yr problems.
but if we push faster immigration of people who are already here legally as a small way to solve the housing crisis then it will definitely stand a chance -
(please note - no distinction between those who are renting and who have a house already - this makes most sense. this is helpful to those who have purchased a house - since getting gC faster means that they have additional peace of mind)
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vkannan
11-12 10:59 PM
WRONG.
YOU are an EB2 India guy for sure and your PD is close.
If spillover happens, all visas will get used up by EB2 India only. EB3 India gets nothing. There are way too many Indians in the system. Even if something is left from EB2 India, EB3 ROW will get breadcrums.
EB3 India gets nothing. So stop giving wrong logic. I will oppose IV helping EB2 guys with close priority dates and not caring about everyone else.
Well, No wonder why we still could not pass any bill in our favour, Keep fighting Dude, EB1 vs EB2 v EB3 v horozontal spill vs vertical spill vs etc etc etc., Keep fighting....you are a good samaritan......
YOU are an EB2 India guy for sure and your PD is close.
If spillover happens, all visas will get used up by EB2 India only. EB3 India gets nothing. There are way too many Indians in the system. Even if something is left from EB2 India, EB3 ROW will get breadcrums.
EB3 India gets nothing. So stop giving wrong logic. I will oppose IV helping EB2 guys with close priority dates and not caring about everyone else.
Well, No wonder why we still could not pass any bill in our favour, Keep fighting Dude, EB1 vs EB2 v EB3 v horozontal spill vs vertical spill vs etc etc etc., Keep fighting....you are a good samaritan......
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StarSun
09-10 11:01 AM
One of the main things that could help us to make a correct guess is number of approved and pending I-140s per country per year of priority.
USCIs shouldn't say they don't have this data and we shouldn't say we never requested this
While there is nothing wrong in knowing the correct pending numbers, there is nothing to gain actually from it. If the goal is to guess correctly when you will be current, then this is worthwhile!!
USCIs shouldn't say they don't have this data and we shouldn't say we never requested this
While there is nothing wrong in knowing the correct pending numbers, there is nothing to gain actually from it. If the goal is to guess correctly when you will be current, then this is worthwhile!!
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GCard_Dream
03-18 05:35 PM
If that is the case, I am not sure why China didn't even move a single day. From the example, China should have gotten half of the unused visas. :confused:
This is the post from Ron:
I have to confess error and make a correction. The AC21 legislation changed things far more that I suspected and changed the allocation process from what I had learned previously. In further corresondence with the Visa Office, I've learned that I was wrong about how numbers are moved from worldwide to single state allocations. The following is a direct quote:
Quote:
Employment First Preference example: Annual limit 40,000 - (expected) 25,000 ("rest of world") - 3,300 (China limit) - 3,300 (India limit) = 8,400 unused numbers. Those 8,400 numbers could be made available to China/India applicants without regard to their normal 3,300 per-country limit for that category. But those extra numbers would need to be made available to China/India applicants on an equal basis, and in doing so making sure that the additional number use would not result in the Worldwide annual limit being exceeded. Thus, the same cut-off date for each country since the extra numbers must be made available in priority date order without regard to country.
I apologize for the confusion generated by my earlier remarks
So whatever said in the visa bulletin makes sense.
This is the post from Ron:
I have to confess error and make a correction. The AC21 legislation changed things far more that I suspected and changed the allocation process from what I had learned previously. In further corresondence with the Visa Office, I've learned that I was wrong about how numbers are moved from worldwide to single state allocations. The following is a direct quote:
Quote:
Employment First Preference example: Annual limit 40,000 - (expected) 25,000 ("rest of world") - 3,300 (China limit) - 3,300 (India limit) = 8,400 unused numbers. Those 8,400 numbers could be made available to China/India applicants without regard to their normal 3,300 per-country limit for that category. But those extra numbers would need to be made available to China/India applicants on an equal basis, and in doing so making sure that the additional number use would not result in the Worldwide annual limit being exceeded. Thus, the same cut-off date for each country since the extra numbers must be made available in priority date order without regard to country.
I apologize for the confusion generated by my earlier remarks
So whatever said in the visa bulletin makes sense.
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hara_patta_for_rico
07-10 08:12 AM
It seems several persons are already discrediting the lawsuit and from the comments I have seen, it is apparent that some have not read the entire complaint.
In order to understand how a civil lawsuit works one needs to understand that in a complaint, one makes no legal arguments, does not cite case or precedent law but only cites the simple facts. The other side can respond to the complaint and deny or accept the allegations in part or in whole. Many cases do not go to trial, they end up in settlements or are decided through summary judgement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_judgment) (for the plaintiff or the defendants) if the case has undisputable matters of facts and one of the parties petitions for it. Several processes also take place ie Discovery long before an actual trial. I recommend reading the following wikipedia entry to familiarize one at a high level with the processes and rules involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Rule_of_Civil_Procedure
To get to the core legal arguments behind the case, one needs to read the counts (they are only stated and not argued/expounded on starting pg 13). Namely those are:
COUNT I: VIOLATION OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) (constitutional rights issue)
COUNT II: VIOLATION OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES ACT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedures_Act)
COUNT III: DECLARATORY JUDGMENT ACT (http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title4/civ00036.htm)
COUNT IV: EQUAL ACCESS TO JUSTICE ACT (http://www.hhs.gov/dab/guidelines/eaja.html)
COUNT V: PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_estoppel)
There are several laws cited above, its thus puzzling to see requests for one to cite the laws USCIS/DOS is accused of violating when its all there in the lawsuit. The plaintiff has the burden of proving the counts they have stated at the appropriate time and not in the complaint. One does not play all their cards in the initial complaint.
Even more puzzling is the persistent fear that there would be retributory action from USCIS. Judges do not take kindly to such behavior and USCIS would have no chance defending itself on charges of retaliatory actions.
Thank you for getting some sanity into the conversation....atleast some people are realising that actions, especially those perpetrated by Govt Agencies, are watched closely. They will be held accountable, whether one likes it or not . If the lawyers want to profit from all of this, let it be so, as long as the voice of a troubled community is heard in a court of law. That is just the first step....
In order to understand how a civil lawsuit works one needs to understand that in a complaint, one makes no legal arguments, does not cite case or precedent law but only cites the simple facts. The other side can respond to the complaint and deny or accept the allegations in part or in whole. Many cases do not go to trial, they end up in settlements or are decided through summary judgement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_judgment) (for the plaintiff or the defendants) if the case has undisputable matters of facts and one of the parties petitions for it. Several processes also take place ie Discovery long before an actual trial. I recommend reading the following wikipedia entry to familiarize one at a high level with the processes and rules involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Rule_of_Civil_Procedure
To get to the core legal arguments behind the case, one needs to read the counts (they are only stated and not argued/expounded on starting pg 13). Namely those are:
COUNT I: VIOLATION OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) (constitutional rights issue)
COUNT II: VIOLATION OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES ACT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedures_Act)
COUNT III: DECLARATORY JUDGMENT ACT (http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title4/civ00036.htm)
COUNT IV: EQUAL ACCESS TO JUSTICE ACT (http://www.hhs.gov/dab/guidelines/eaja.html)
COUNT V: PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_estoppel)
There are several laws cited above, its thus puzzling to see requests for one to cite the laws USCIS/DOS is accused of violating when its all there in the lawsuit. The plaintiff has the burden of proving the counts they have stated at the appropriate time and not in the complaint. One does not play all their cards in the initial complaint.
Even more puzzling is the persistent fear that there would be retributory action from USCIS. Judges do not take kindly to such behavior and USCIS would have no chance defending itself on charges of retaliatory actions.
Thank you for getting some sanity into the conversation....atleast some people are realising that actions, especially those perpetrated by Govt Agencies, are watched closely. They will be held accountable, whether one likes it or not . If the lawyers want to profit from all of this, let it be so, as long as the voice of a troubled community is heard in a court of law. That is just the first step....
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missourian
07-16 05:19 PM
Why they are misrepresenting senators, we are not paying TAX!! ?, is that possible for IV to take action about it by counter emailing?.
Original Poster, Even in IV we have webfaxes, I used to send around 100 faxes to all the senators for all 50 states, so IV has that facility, Kuddos to you by lending a helping hand on programming part if required.
Original Poster, Even in IV we have webfaxes, I used to send around 100 faxes to all the senators for all 50 states, so IV has that facility, Kuddos to you by lending a helping hand on programming part if required.
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AMITAT007
10-03 03:08 AM
I am on L1A visa with Company A & the I-94 was valid till September 10, 2007.
Company B has filed my H1B on April 20, 2007 & I received I797 notice dated May 17, 2007 with change of status from Oct 1, 2007.
In the meantime, Company A has filed an extention of status of L1A from September 10, 2007 on June 8, 2007. For which I received the I797 notice dated June 28, 2007.
I have few question
1. What is my status from Oct 1, 2007, as I did not joined the company B. I am not in a position to leave Company A till Nov 15, 2007. As the I797 for L1 extention was of the latter date, whether the law of last action will be applicable here & I can work for Company A on L1 till Nov 15, 2007
2. If I can work on L1, whether my H1B approval get cancelled automatically. Whether the company B have to file I129 & I539 for me.
3. If I am out of status what should I do. Do i have go back to my native country immediately & leave to idea to work in USA for ever or there is any other way.
Company B has filed my H1B on April 20, 2007 & I received I797 notice dated May 17, 2007 with change of status from Oct 1, 2007.
In the meantime, Company A has filed an extention of status of L1A from September 10, 2007 on June 8, 2007. For which I received the I797 notice dated June 28, 2007.
I have few question
1. What is my status from Oct 1, 2007, as I did not joined the company B. I am not in a position to leave Company A till Nov 15, 2007. As the I797 for L1 extention was of the latter date, whether the law of last action will be applicable here & I can work for Company A on L1 till Nov 15, 2007
2. If I can work on L1, whether my H1B approval get cancelled automatically. Whether the company B have to file I129 & I539 for me.
3. If I am out of status what should I do. Do i have go back to my native country immediately & leave to idea to work in USA for ever or there is any other way.
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neoneo
09-26 08:40 PM
Here's a classic example ..
If you look at the other threads on this forum you have people against the Durban bill coz it affects F-1 students . There is another section which is against Grassley coz it'll affect Consultants trying to get H1-B. I do understand Grassley's bill can have many implications and need to be opposed, but the focus still has to be towards alleviating the Employment based GC issues.
I don't think CNN is to be faulted that much coz IV itself has lost its focus towards Employment Based Green Cards. period. thats what is started out to be and needs to come back on that track instead of trying to act as a platform for all Legal Immigration issues.
Simply put IV is " EB-1/2/3- related org" ok..ok.. add in those millionaires who put in a million dollars for GC too.
If you look at the other threads on this forum you have people against the Durban bill coz it affects F-1 students . There is another section which is against Grassley coz it'll affect Consultants trying to get H1-B. I do understand Grassley's bill can have many implications and need to be opposed, but the focus still has to be towards alleviating the Employment based GC issues.
I don't think CNN is to be faulted that much coz IV itself has lost its focus towards Employment Based Green Cards. period. thats what is started out to be and needs to come back on that track instead of trying to act as a platform for all Legal Immigration issues.
Simply put IV is " EB-1/2/3- related org" ok..ok.. add in those millionaires who put in a million dollars for GC too.
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imv116
04-02 03:13 PM
[quote=sweet_jungle]
What's wrong in getting trained as a fresher, and what's wrong in a consulting company trying to increase there business.
How is it different from companies like TCS, Wipro, Satyam, Polaris etc that do a lot of campus recruiting, provide intensive training and place the candidates on projects and eventually coming here.
To let you know, there are more then 200K masters students coming every year to USA to pursue advanced degrees.
-the116
What's wrong in getting trained as a fresher, and what's wrong in a consulting company trying to increase there business.
How is it different from companies like TCS, Wipro, Satyam, Polaris etc that do a lot of campus recruiting, provide intensive training and place the candidates on projects and eventually coming here.
To let you know, there are more then 200K masters students coming every year to USA to pursue advanced degrees.
-the116
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nixstor
04-23 04:57 PM
Read my message - I am *NOT* an IV member and nor did I represent myself as one - like many people I just subscribed to public portal - if you want to limit it to IV members, you must consider doing that .
As far as talking in the meeting was considered, it was not an IV meeting and open to the public and I have all the right to say what I want to - whether it is inline with what you want to hear or not is not my problem.
Tone yourself down before you point fingers elsewhere. GC is not your birth right.
Bud,
Its quite contradictory that you say that you are not an IV member and dont intend to be one, but you would like to particiapte freely and throw your opinion and get info about events with out aligning to the common goal of the organization. Now dont tell me that you got info about the event some where else. If every one of us try to get our own issue or a group of 15-20 people's issue solved we wont get any thing. This is common sense. What you said about making it paid site/open for certain members sounds bland to me. I am appalled that your thought process is not at all in sync with your accomplishments. If you think you can sell your group story and bring GC to the massess dream on. IV sure has lot of compelling stories that are sold already, but politics is bigger than you,me and our stories. If you are working only for people who are sought after by the stanford's and harvard's, move on.
It's so unfortunate that we fight on issues like this. On your next conf call with Rajiv, bring up the same Q and seek his advice. Let us know what he thinks about your sales pitch and getting GC's only for the most sought. I am not mocking you or slinging mud at you. Its blatant that you are not understanding the political scenario. GC is not any one's birth right but that is what actuallly holding you up.
As far as talking in the meeting was considered, it was not an IV meeting and open to the public and I have all the right to say what I want to - whether it is inline with what you want to hear or not is not my problem.
Tone yourself down before you point fingers elsewhere. GC is not your birth right.
Bud,
Its quite contradictory that you say that you are not an IV member and dont intend to be one, but you would like to particiapte freely and throw your opinion and get info about events with out aligning to the common goal of the organization. Now dont tell me that you got info about the event some where else. If every one of us try to get our own issue or a group of 15-20 people's issue solved we wont get any thing. This is common sense. What you said about making it paid site/open for certain members sounds bland to me. I am appalled that your thought process is not at all in sync with your accomplishments. If you think you can sell your group story and bring GC to the massess dream on. IV sure has lot of compelling stories that are sold already, but politics is bigger than you,me and our stories. If you are working only for people who are sought after by the stanford's and harvard's, move on.
It's so unfortunate that we fight on issues like this. On your next conf call with Rajiv, bring up the same Q and seek his advice. Let us know what he thinks about your sales pitch and getting GC's only for the most sought. I am not mocking you or slinging mud at you. Its blatant that you are not understanding the political scenario. GC is not any one's birth right but that is what actuallly holding you up.
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gimme_GC2006
05-12 03:13 PM
You might want to research your options some more. Maybe, have a talk with someone who is a more senior colleague or mentor, preferably one who has an MBA.
It appears from your comment on investment banking that you haven't done your research. IBs usually recruit only from the top-10 type schools.
Good Luck!
thepaew, right, I understand IB needs from top-10..it was more of "I wish I had" stuff..I am not serious on that.
Coming to why "online" ? Because I cant go fulltime on college (I have to quit my job...means no salary for 2 years...not possible..I am not that filthy rich :D)
moreover there is increased trend in acceptance of online MBA as major universities are coming online now.
It appears from your comment on investment banking that you haven't done your research. IBs usually recruit only from the top-10 type schools.
Good Luck!
thepaew, right, I understand IB needs from top-10..it was more of "I wish I had" stuff..I am not serious on that.
Coming to why "online" ? Because I cant go fulltime on college (I have to quit my job...means no salary for 2 years...not possible..I am not that filthy rich :D)
moreover there is increased trend in acceptance of online MBA as major universities are coming online now.
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rajsand
09-26 11:36 AM
Sent a message to the editor.
Maybe we should let other news sites know about CNN's defaulting if they do not make corrections even after many requests!
Maybe we should let other news sites know about CNN's defaulting if they do not make corrections even after many requests!
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Openarms
12-08 03:04 PM
Did anybody get actual response from USCIS yet??
loti_GC
06-11 06:48 AM
Our I-485 was approved on May 30th. Got cards and I-485 notice on Friday.
Jerrome
07-28 03:49 PM
Good one..
I am reading about 16th century stuff here in this thread.
Let us go back to 10,000 B.C or further back (ice age or if possible even before).
Was there any gods (known to us) then (any religion for that matter)?
Gods came in to existence with human civilization. Initially as an answer to all things that were 'unknown' to human beings and then later as a 'tool' to insist discipline (in their own understanding as to what discipline is) among human beings.
We talk about Iran, Iraq, afghanistan wars, bomb blasts in India, poverty in places like somalia and in all of these INCIDENTS millions of innocents died/die. What are/were the 'Gods' doing? Can They not stop this from happening?
They won't. Because these are started by human beings and unless we stop it won't stop. Now don't direct me to a book or a PDF. Answer me straight.
Human beings are the most cruel/selfish creatures on earth. We are animals - well worse than them - social animals. This thread does not make any sense.
We are talking about our 'beliefs' here and that is decided by so many factors. Million people will have million different beliefs.
I am reading about 16th century stuff here in this thread.
Let us go back to 10,000 B.C or further back (ice age or if possible even before).
Was there any gods (known to us) then (any religion for that matter)?
Gods came in to existence with human civilization. Initially as an answer to all things that were 'unknown' to human beings and then later as a 'tool' to insist discipline (in their own understanding as to what discipline is) among human beings.
We talk about Iran, Iraq, afghanistan wars, bomb blasts in India, poverty in places like somalia and in all of these INCIDENTS millions of innocents died/die. What are/were the 'Gods' doing? Can They not stop this from happening?
They won't. Because these are started by human beings and unless we stop it won't stop. Now don't direct me to a book or a PDF. Answer me straight.
Human beings are the most cruel/selfish creatures on earth. We are animals - well worse than them - social animals. This thread does not make any sense.
We are talking about our 'beliefs' here and that is decided by so many factors. Million people will have million different beliefs.
